Wisconsin Voters Launch Recall Campaign Against Eight GOP State Senators

Long, long trudge to a recall election.

Not only that, but there is no gaurantee that the incumbent would loose the recall election. Based on the districts that the GOP candidates are coming from, there is one 50-50 chance to retain, the rest are more then likely to retain. On the Democrat side, both that are currently in the process of being recalled are 50-50 chance that they will retain.

The Democrats could come out of this with less seats then they had prior to the recalls, just as easily as the Republicans.

The Democrats could come out of this with less seats then they had prior to the recalls, just as easily as the Republicans.

And then the Wisconsin voters will have spoken on this agenda. Something they did not have the opportunity to do in November.

And then the Wisconsin voters will have spoken on this agenda. Something they did not have the opportunity to do in November.

What are you talking about? Everyone who voted in November got a voice, those who didn't have no right to complain. Everyone of legal voting age in Wisconsin had (and has) the opportunity to vote, it is their fault if they didn't.

Those who weren't up for election in 2010 are in 2012 and were in 2008, it's the way things work. Don't like it, petition for a change in the Wisconsin Constitution, until then either live with it or whine about it. Your choice.

The issue is collective bargaining, not budget cuts. That is what I mean by this issue. Walker did not run on collective bargaining. He ran on reducing the budget shortfall. He got the concessions he ran on from the public unions. The fight is on an issue not discussed in the campaign. That is why many of those that voted for him in November would now vote for Bartlett, 52% to 45% according to the polls I have seen.

Sad just sad

I get the feeling you are a tad angry, am I correct?

For the record, I hope that any Senator that would vote for a worker's right to unionize and negotiate is rightfully recalled. It is very heartening to see democracy in action.

To Jerryb12 - Help us understand you and your stance. First, define what YOU think is "Liberal". Then afterward, share to this bulletin board YOUR philosophy and view of life, the universe and everything. Please, as a challenge for you, attempt to be respectful when you do share your views.

Just to get the ball rolling, I'll share you my basic view and philosophy. I advocate for and celebrate human-beings and the wonderful life that surrounds us. My principles are based on the concepts of fairness and compassion. These simple views are based in no small part on my Christian upbringing which I hold dear to my heart.

Your turn. . .

Errrr. . . Oops!. . . Correction. . . I meant to say that "I hope that any Senator that would vote AGAINST a worker's right to unionize and negotiate is rightfully recalled."

Why undermine the right to unionize and negotiate?? Unions have been beneficial for our citizens and our country! There have been dozens and dozens of posts found HERE on THIS one bulletin board, alone, that give many, many, many great examples to how unions have benefited the citizens of this country.

(See, Jerryb12. . . even us so-called "liberals" can make mistakes. For me, this time, it was omitting the important word, "Against". LOL!!! Looking forward to your thoughtful, respectful response to my inquiries.)

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

As opposed to a mental void?

Liberalism is a mental disorder. They will get this done, get the Gov's law through, the DEMNUTS who would not come to the vote, should be impeached.

Speaking of a mental disorder, reading crap like this almost causes one.

So jerryb, impeached for?????: Taking a stand and representing the best interest of their constituents, with nearly 70% of the country behind them? They have broken no laws.

Now Walker on the other hand:

1) Locking the doors to the Capital building, that is against the WI constitution.

2) A judge issued a restraining order, demanding the doors be unlocked and the people be allowed to once again occupy "their house", which Walker DEFIED yesterday.

Impeachment? YES, but not for the dems, but for WALKER and the other republicans.

Oh, and for the record. I am a republican, and I don't like unions, but respect and accept union members, and their right to organize.

Alan,

I agree with you, I think many who considered themselves republicans are re-thinking their political affiliations. Republicans have a really bad credibility problem in this country. How is fair to punish middle class working people while giving tax breaks to the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country? Also, giving the wall street scum that created this mess a free pass does not go over well with the general populous.

I consider myself libertarian/conservative on most issues, but the republicans are shooting themselves in the foot with their plans. This is blindly unfair.

just seems odd that the amount of money a person makes should be determined by the amount of time at that job and not how effective they are at performing that function.

also seems odd that when budgets are tight that we would have to lay off those who haven't been in the system very long instead of being able to determine who stays and who go's based on skill sets and productivity.

also odd, it seems to me that those who are really good teachers should be able to get more for their good job than someone else does for just a fair job.

i am also against the idea that someone has to be a part of a union to have a job.

but then again, in a society where working hard is not the norm, i can see how the masses would love unions.

Hey Scott, I've got a daughter and son-in-law up there in Appleto(w)n, in the great Paper Valley. I'm sure you could get her signature and she'd probably make her husband sign too. Sorry I can't help but I'm down here welcoming the brave 14 in Illinois.

Thank you very much PaPa , the support for Wisconsin from people around the country is energizes us even more.

Last time I checked they weren't putting crosshairs over the districts they represent/pictures of the reps...

But thats off topic.

Crosshairs are surveying symbols, donchaknow? And Boehner made it clear in his own language during the week that the gloves are off, so why are you complaining, mhr?

This is democracy in action.

This is not Democracy, this is soft tyranny. This is 14.9 % of the population trying to impose their will over the rest of the 85% of Wisconsin. They have the crooked media and news papers on their side too. Just look at the heading, "Wisconsin Voters" this is an attempt to project the 14.9 onto the rest of the 85.1%. Trying to mislead the reader into thinking that many more that 14.9% of Wisconsin is trying to recall the senators. A wicked game of propaganda Union Cartels play as they play the citizens of Wisconsin.

Yes,... "Wisconsin Voters," but they only comprise 14.9% of the population and if any non-union person signs the petition to recall these senators who are trying to protect their wallets from these Union cartels then what can you do?...Nothing. They were tricked into thinking that 14.9 was much more that what it is.

You guys must not have listened in to MSN's coverage of Tuscon. After there was no link between the map and the shooter it was the rhetoric that was blaimed. Same situation yet the left has no qualms.

TennisMom2.....

fair enough! .... and I'll shut up!

Get him a shovel.

It's going to be a long dig to daylight for him.

He came off as a pompous ass last night, and again tonight. It really does show the contempt the right has for working men and women. He is doing himself no favors. I hope he gets recalled, maybe he'll gain some perspective that way.

Well of course he did. He had to because he is dealing with "a different breed of people".

That guy was condescending and patronizing and an all around @!$%#.

Think of the sound bites he gave his opponent in his next race. How did such an idiot get elected in the first place?

Apparently, the people (read republican voters) of Wisconsin didn't realize who they were voting for. They just walked into the booth and looked for the R. If you look at the polls and how people are shifting in opinion, REPUBLICAN VOTERS are changing their minds about who they would have voted for if they had the chance for a do over.

(You don't have that problem with Democrats who supported Obama; trust me, even if unhappy with some of Obama's choices, no one in their right mind would switch over to John and Sarah even if they had the chance to do it again.)

DAV, and the House is trying its best to undo all the good Obama has done. The Wisconsin voters are pursuing recalls. Democracy in action in both instances.

Hey Ozark,

The voters will be heard, loud and clear with their recall petitions

These voters are about 14.9 % of the population. The people that have begun this recall are unionized members that have been enriched by crooked Union Cartels and crooked politics at the expense all Wisconsin tax payers.

I'd really like to see proof of your statement about, "crooked union cartels" and "crooked politics." We've already established that the "Honorable" Governor Scott Walker has at best a loose definition of what constitutes ethical behavior via his taped phone call.

Really?.....You don't see what happening in Wisconsin? And you ask for proof of crookedness....

You must be a Union member that has been enriched by these crooked cartels bankrupting 44 of the 50 states un America and are only defending your way of life.

Hey, Education for the masses

Your handle is quite amazing. Because these CROOKED cartels have enriched themselves and you because of the ignorance of the masses.

"Treasures gotten by wickedness profits nothing"..

Prov10:2

“Treasures of wickedness” refer to ill-gotten gain. Greed and covetousness is whats going on here through all kinds of unjust, deceptive, violent, cruel and unmerciful methods. “Treasures of wickedness” are the fruits of selfish desires.

Proverbs 22:16 says that there is one that “oppresseth the poor to increase his riches”.

The very thing that stirred and motivated the hearts of men early this century to come together for protection against the greed, the crookedness and the corruption of big business has now become the oppressor....Labor Union Cartels.

Now the taxpayer is fleeced by the twin evils of big business and Labor unions!

IHL

These voters are about 14.9 % of the population.

Would like to know where you are getting the talking points you keep repeating from.

Yes, Union membership is around 15% but if you think it's *only* Union members that are against Gov. Walker and the GOP's Union busting proposals you are crazy. For every union member there are wives, children, brothers and sisters, neighbors, friends, etc that are supporting them. Not all Union members are even Democrats. Do you think the Union members who voted Republican are happy with the GOP right now?

There are also people like me, belonging to no Union but none the less fully aware of the fact that if I had to choose between Unions or Corporations (or the GOP) to look out for my interests, I would choose Unions every time.

It is far, far more than just the 15% who belong to a Union who against this GOP lead destruction of America.

IHL: In a recent poll of WISCONSIN VOTERS, the question was asked whether they support a recall of Scott Walker. It was a dead split 48/48% with the remaining "not sure". Your 14% is crap spun into conspiracy.

Another poll asking "if the election were held today, who would you vote for" with Walker loosing 57% to 42%.

Guess what? People are turning against Walker because he's a dick, not because they are being brainwashed by thugs.

OH and I am still a Republican and still don't like unions, and I would love to see this @!$%#stain (Walker) get the boot from WI.

Baloney your points. I get the stats from the web site of the State of Wisconsin. It's all on the up and up. Union membership in Wisconsin is 380,000 members represented not including the bureaucrats at the cartel Hall vs total population of Wisconsin at 5,687,000. My 11 year old did the math 14.9%.

Yes...the reason why its a dead split is because not all wisconsin voters are represented or got involved in the the survey. For example the highly concentrated pro-union vote her is almost 100% vs meaning it would take almost 380,000 Wisconsin voters that believed in fairness to the tax payer to counter this 380,000 just to keep it dead even, hence you get your 48/48 split.

Ask your self how many were surveyed? Where was the sample taken from? and how was it taken? all this matters.

Yes they are being brain washed and tricked by thugs. Yes it is 14.9% and if non-unionized people support these union cartels then all they do is give permission for these thugs to rip them off. Home owners in particular.

Its sad to see people like you that can't see the swindle that has gone on for decades. In every state.

Walker, or who ever!...but at least he is not one of the 14 Union puppets that refuses to show up for work.

I mean just the disappearance of these politicians manifests the power these cartels have on the tax payer. I know big business has done the same but just because one side does wrong does that justify the same wrong from the other side?

I see nothing from you besides insinuation, innuendo and opinion, IHL. Let's try to be honest here and admit you have no proof of your statements and are only engaging in rabble rousing rhetoric. If you can't prove your libelous statements than you should try to argue on merit instead. Good luck with that.

A public union employee, a tea party activist, and a CEO are sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies in the middle of it.
The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says " watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie". From Shelby Wright ( Maine political activist)

mtpromises,

I heard Maddow last night use the same quote, it's brilliant.

And the word "cartel" is being misused. It generally applies to businesses that are engaged in price fixing and market protectionism. The unions aren't capable of fixing their own wages since they have to come to an agreement with the employers.

However, it's nicely loaded language designed to make unions look evil and criminal, albeit false.

The Koch brothers can buy the Wisconsin Republican Representatives and Senators but they can not buy the voters.

You do realize that the $43,000 they contributed to the ~$9,000,000 that Walker had for his campaign is about ~.48% of the total right?

Do you REALLY think that Governor Walker is going to give preference to someone over .48% of his campaign funds?

MJV,

Do you REALLY think that Governor Walker is going to give preference to someone over .48% of his campaign funds?

Then why would Mr. Walker take a supposed personal call from one of the Koch brothers and have a detailed conversation with him about strategy in defeating the unions?

He sure looked like he was giving him preference there.

Do you REALLY think that Governor Walker is going to give preference to someone over .48% of his campaign funds?

What was the percentage from the next 20 top contributors? What are his prospects for employment after his term as governor is over and with whom will he be employed or doing business. Not all favors are done for past contributions. Some are done in anticipation of future rewards. This stint as governor could net him a multi-million dollar job after he leaves office. Do you think that could influence his position on issues?

Tim,

that's exactly what all these scumbag politicians do. Look up how many former investigators for the SEC work with the big banks and financial institutions. It's a huge conflict of interest, but everyone pretends it doesn't exist.

Then why would Mr. Walker take a supposed personal call from one of the Koch brothers and have a detailed conversation with him about strategy in defeating the unions?

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

I have no clue why he took the call, and frankly neither do you, the difference is you are projecting your bias on the reasons without any fact as to exactly why the call was taken.

What was the percentage from the next 20 top contributors?

Housing and Realty PAC gave $43,125.
Koch PAC gave $43,000.
Various Road Builders gave over $128,000 in total.

There are a lot of donations of up to $10,000 as well.

What are his prospects for employment after his term as governor is over and with whom will he be employed or doing business.

Well, I would guess he will run for US Senate after he's done being the Governor, but I don't know for sure, no one does, not even Mr. Walker at this point I would guess.

Not all favors are done for past contributions. Some are done in anticipation of future rewards

That's the way the world works ... like it or not. I'd guess you expect something out of your "contributions" to politicans as well right?

This stint as governor could net him a multi-million dollar job after he leaves office.

Or not.

Do you think that could influence his position on issues?

Could it? Sure. The real question is will it, and neither of us knows for sure one way or another.

MJV,

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

Bull@!$%#

LOL, There's someone we can empirically say has delusions of grandeur, yes, total BS.

LOL, There's someone we can empirically say has delusions of grandeur, yes, total BS.

LOL, whatever. I grew up with him, know where he works, have his direct extension at work, his cell phone number, his address.

I was invited to his wedding. I sat at the same table with Paul Ryan and his wife, and Mark Neumann and his wife.

I know you don't believe me, but I really don't care. I know what I know, and who I know and you have no clue who I am.

Oh, I live a block away from his parents as well. I used to work for his dad back in High School, he's my alderman where I live.

The biggest fallacy in a democracy is that everyones opinion is worth the same.

Then why would Mr. Walker take a supposed personal call from one of the Koch brothers and have a detailed conversation with him about strategy in defeating the unions?

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

So your previously implied argument to discredit the above that ANYONE can call and have a conversation with a politician is BS, and you just admitted it.

Your credibility is now destroyed sir, do you want to continue digging the hole deeper, you are free to do so. I would advise you to just shut up and go.

Daniel,

Doesn't it amaze you just how stupid some of these people can be? They don't even realise when they are contradicting themselves.

It shows what side of the fence he's on and why.

Doesn't it amaze you just how stupid some of these people can be?

Not in the least.

You know what, IHL this whole "my data is better than your data",, bull@!$%#.

Yes, union members make up 14.9% of the population, but that figure is completely without relevance, since pollsters didn't sample from the local "union only" phone book. The number of people polled? Strawman at its best. The FACT is that in every @!$%#ing poll taken, including Rasmussen, Walkers plan to destroy collective bargaining loses by double digits.

Even a FOX news poll showed the same thing.

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

I was unaware that David Koch was a resident of Wisconsin. And there is a difference between calling your representative and the governor.

I was unaware that David Koch was a resident of Wisconsin.

Never said he was

And there is a difference between calling your representative and the governor.

Yes there is, but given a few phone calls, I might be able to talk directly to him as well, although after this phone prank, it will be much harder to get through the screening.

MJV,

Common now! You went from refuting my position of Walker giving preferential treatment to David Koch,

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

to some sort of wishy washy statement about getting through to a major public official,

Yes there is, but given a few phone calls, I might be able to talk directly to him as well, although after this phone prank, it will be much harder to get through the screening.

You went from saying "I can" to "I might".

The truth is, after reading your post

LOL, whatever. I grew up with him, know where he works, have his direct extension at work, his cell phone number, his address.

I was invited to his wedding. I sat at the same table with Paul Ryan and his wife, and Mark Neumann and his wife.

I know you don't believe me, but I really don't care. I know what I know, and who I know and you have no clue who I am.

Oh, I live a block away from his parents as well. I used to work for his dad back in High School, he's my alderman where I live.

Your not in tune with the way most Americans think. Face it, you're in the club, congratulations. Like most politicians you cannot grasp what it means to be poor or middle class in this country.

Bull@!$%# flows like water from the GOP. When will America ever learn.

"There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents... There is also an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class... The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent its ascendency... [is] it best to put the pseudo-aristoi [of wealth and birth] into a separate chamber of legislation, where they may be hindered from doing mischief by their coordinate branches, and where, also, they may be a protection to wealth against the agrarian and plundering enterprises of the majority of the people? I think that to give them power in order to prevent them from doing mischief is arming them for it, and increasing instead of remedying the evil. For if the coordinate branches can arrest their action, so may they that of the coordinates. Mischief may be done negatively as well as positively... Nor do I believe them necessary to protect the wealthy; because enough of these will find their way into every branch of the legislation to protect themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813.

You went from saying "I can" to "I might".

I can talk to my representative, I might be able to get through to the Governor ... does that clear things up for you?

Your not in tune with the way most Americans think. Face it, you're in the club, congratulations.Like most politicians you cannot grasp what it means to be poor or middle class in this country.

Or it could be that I grew up in a small Wisconsin farm town where everyone knew everyone.

I wouldn't be too sure that you know what I do and don't grasp. I'm not in the club any more then the few thousand other people that personally know my government officials. I talk to the mayor of my city at least once a year, my alderman at least once a month.

I'm not special in any way, I just choose to keep in contact with the politicans who represent me. I have no delusions of grandure, or any "special get out of jail free card" like you think I do. I don't lie or BS any more then anyone else in the world.

What you choose to believe is what you choose to believe, and frankly, I'm not trying to change your mind on anything. If you choose not to belive me, I don't care, because my life isn't made, or lost, by what you believe of me. I would say a good half the people who know me, dont like me very much and that's ok with me.

MJV,

Just admit you were wrong about the point you were trying to make.

You stated that Walker would not show preferential treatment to a Koch.

To prove this you quoted a small contribution made by Koch.

I then asked you why Walker would take a personal phone call from someone like Koch and discuss his current plans to bust unions.

You then told me that anyone can get through and talk to someone like Walker.

I said you were lying. So did others.

Because you were embarrassed you felt you had to show just how you could talk to your congressman (you know him personally)

By stating this you confirmed two of my original points. Regular people would not be able to talk to Walker, and Walker was showing preferential treatment of David Koch.

Go back and re-read the posts in their entirety, you proved yourself wrong and made yourself look foolish. Be a man and admit it.

I would say a good half the people who know me, dont like me very much and that's ok with me.

I think you're underestimating. Even if it's half, don't you think the problem lies within yourself? I know that of the people I know, my rate of likability is quite high.

MJV,

And you should. They are your elected officials and they should be answerable to you and other residents of Wisconsin. They owe it to you as your elected officials. Why do they owe it to David Koch?

I think you're underestimating. Even if it's half, don't you think the problem lies within yourself? I know that of the people I know, my rate of likability is quite high.

You must not put yourself in positions to be disliked. I coached/umpired and was on the board of directors as a regular member and a even short term as president, of my local youth baseball and softball programs for 16 years. Also in a small town, just your last name can garner hate, even when people don't know you. I'm one of a number of people with the same last name as mine, one of three with the same first and last name, in a pretty small town. Trust me, in backwater small towns it doesn't take much. Not playing a kid here, calling a kid out there ... presiding over the board that disallowed 9 year olds to play on the same teams as 12 year olds in the local little league program. That one got me a whole bunch of hate, let me tell you, almost as much as the guy who was president when they let 9 year olds play with 12 year olds (go figure). They still hate his guts and that was 15 years ago and he hasn't been part of the little league program for 12 of those 15.

Yes, I'm an ass, I'm the first to admit it, trust me. But sometimes it's just being the convenient target and not the source that gets you hated in a small town.

Why do they owe it to David Koch?

They don't, but that doesn't mean they have to snub them either. Maybe he's playing his cards for a future presidential run, I don't know. Maybe he wants Koch to move some business to Wisconsin, which is just as plausable as your side of the story.

I'll tell you what George, send me an email with your phone number, I'll see what I can do to get you in a conference call with my representative (at a minimum) ... and if I can swing it, Governor Walker ... although admittedly that one would be much harder to do ... If it happens you can ask him why he took a call from someone his assistant thought was David Koch.

You then told me that anyone can get through and talk to someone like Walker.

I did? I must have missed that ... please show me where I said that.

I coached/umpired and was on the board of directors as a regular member and a even short term as president, of my local youth baseball and softball programs for 16 years.

We have already seen how credible your word is.

MJV,

You then told me that anyone can get through and talk to someone like Walker.

I did? I must have missed that ... please show me where I said that.

OK,

Then why would Mr. Walker take a supposed personal call from one of the Koch brothers and have a detailed conversation with him about strategy in defeating the unions?

I could call my state representative right now and have a 20 minute conversation with him regarding strategy as well, and you know what, I didn't give him a dime.

Please do not tell me that you did not literally say that anyone could get in touch with someone like walker. That was the implication you made when you replied.

As for your offer, I have to decline, I was born and bred in NYC and I do not trust you or anyone I do not know. If you want to contact several sources to find out why Walker took Kochs phone call be my guest, but I do not think you will get anywhere near Walker or anywhere near an answer to that question.

You're missing the larger point here, the koch brothers are oilmen and billionaires, it is dangerous to allow those people to have any more say (or weight) in how we are governed than the regular voting public (not to mention the fact that they don't even reside in the state). Most of the heads of corporations will do anything that gives them an advantage to make more money (at the expense of regular people). Busting the unions in WI gives the republicans the upper hand in any future elections. Being that republicans are friendly (understatement) towards corporations, the Koch brothers know that republican wins translate into future dollars for them. It does not matter if these future dollars come at the expense of working class people.

Living in a small town that fights over the politics of children's baseball games must be tough. I cannot imagine being in such a predicament. You seem like an honest individual who gives people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their integrity and motives. Being that I am a former wall street executive and trader, I've experienced very powerful people and the lengths they go to, to obtain more power and wealth. It's not a pretty picture.

Good luck in your future

We have already seen how credible your word is.

And we all know how much I care about your (incorrect) perception of my crediblity.

Please do not tell me that you did not literally say that anyone could get in touch with someone like walker. That was the implication you made when you replied.

Actually, that is what you inferred from my statement, what I implied was that I could talk to my rep, and maybe, if I pulled some strings, talk to Walker.

If you want to contact several sources to find out why Walker took Kochs phone call be my guest,

I'll see what I can do, unfortunately, few would take my word on the issue, so it is mainly for my benefit I guess.

You're missing the larger point here, the koch brothers are oilmen and billionaires, it is dangerous to allow those people to have any more say (or weight) in how we are governed than the regular voting public

I don't disagree with you here, if you would like to do some research in my postings, you'll find that I want all money in politics to come from a general fund, and each candidate gets a set amount based on what they are running for, from nation wide down to local dog catcher elections (if they still elect dog catchers) ... no, and I do mean no, private funds from anyone, including the candidate.

Take all outside influence out of elections, period.

Living in a small town that fights over the politics of children's baseball games must be tough.

We have a saying around here ... Everything bad in this world stems from Little League. Youth sports in general are an interesting issue, it doesn't matter what sport, almost every parent thinks their child is the next coming ... Out of the 1000's of kids that have gone through youth and High School sports in my town over the past 50 years, exactly 1 has made it to the pro level. I won't say who as that will give way too much info into my life.

You seem like an honest individual who gives people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their integrity and motives.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Being that I am a former wall street executive and trader, I've experienced very powerful people and the lengths they go to, to obtain more power and wealth. It's not a pretty picture.

Doing what I did for a living for over 25 years (Computer Consulting) I see similar things, even in small companies, but I also see the other side of those powerful individuals as well ... there is usually a nice side to everyone, even if it doesn't come out to 'play' much ...

Good luck in your future

Thanks, same to you.

Yea...so unions can continue to get benefits and rip the tax payer off...Yea...

IHL too bad that's only anti union rhetoric.

really....so you truly do not think that those Union thugs had no hand in this financial mess were in. You truly believe they (The Cartels) are completely innocent in putting such an enormous burden on the tax payer that nearly 70 of the general fund in California goes to union membership that consists of only 2.8% of the state's population. this is the same in 44 of the 50 states and you are here still posting that your Unions are the only thing that stands between child labor abuse and big business...HOG WASH and you know it!....

Do you know why Im so good at being the aggressor in this mind boggling rip of of the states? I am a union member for 20 years and I see first hand the crooked politics and the twisted truth we are so skilled in doing. We are the best in propaganda wars. None can stand toe to toe with us because we don't have to play fair but big business at least has to play fair on the surface.

You should have seen the work we did to Arnold, we have the power and it's crooked and we have those idiot tax payers voting for our puppets in Sacramento so we can continue to take their money. All we have to do is say it's for the kids and dummy Californians will vote for it.

Just off the top of my head, just look at L.A. County audit reports and all the waste that goes on, each and every time there's the union that either supported the measures or directly profited from the tax payer money... I need to stop !!!!

They had little effect on what has happened not no effect. Going after them is the same as going after a bee when your being attacked by a lion. Considering Unions are willing to bargain it's even worse. At that point your ignoring a lion you know is after you to attack a bee that isn't interested in you. Till we go after the lion namely Corporate welfare and actual tax rates for the top nothing will change.

Also collective bargaining has nothing to do with the budget so that not even an issue. It's a ruse to union bust.

You truly believe they (The Cartels) are completely innocent in putting such an enormous burden on the tax payer that nearly 70 of the general fund in California goes to union membership that consists of only 2.8% of the state's population.

Yes I expect 70% of state revenues to go to public projects and employees. That is what the money is for, to provide services. I expect the same for any business. That is how the products are made or the services provided, with or without unions. Like Texas and its deficit without public unions. And I expect public employees to be a small % of the total population since the government is not in the for profit sector of the economy.

O.k...

That is what the money is for, to provide services.

True....But the state of California has become like GMAC. Unions turned GMAC into an entity who's primary purpose became to give employee benefits and then build cars on the side. The Unions have transformed the States into entities to serve up employee benefits then serve the citizens on the side if there's money left.

The corrections officers union is perfect example when teachers and students get the shaft while correctional officers get raises and fat pension contributions per Gray Davis.

IHL too bad that's only anti union rhetoric.

neoatg,

Is this all you have to say, is this all you have. Ay yayay!

Are you telling me that I have made up every thing and its all lies? Your in denial and it's because your way of life has been served up to you through unrighteousness. All who are enriched (this includes the rich) through unrighteousness shall not prosper.

In this world or the world to come.

One last comment.....

There are more hard working men and women in unions than there is lazy bums who sleep in the bathroom for hours and tell their supervisors they were sick.

The hard working just need to see the light and understand that the lazy employee is a threat to their future.

"Men are disposed to live honestly, if the means of doing so are open to them." --Thomas Jefferson to Francois de Marbois, 1817. 

The Founders knew this as an empirical fact that..

"An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." -- Plato

And that..

“Birth and wealth together have prevailed over virtue and talent in all ages” John Adams

This is an Axiom for all Good Governments, that its Purpose, they very reason that we gave up some of our rights to have a government at all, that our government is to provide for the greater welfare of the people of the Nation. So the Founders wrote a legal document on how to do this called the Constitution of the United States. And for this purpose, that it is clearly stated in the preamble, under whose authority this country was established!

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

No King or God, the People are the only Legal sovereigns of America.

"Taxes should be proportioned to what may be annually spared by the individual." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1784.

When I see a multi- millionaire being taxed so much that he can't afford to provided for his family and secure his old age in the future, then I'd give him a tax break. Anything beyond that is to much money, and if they are HORDING the wealth of MY country and expecting the poorest to fight and die in wars to protect THEM and their money SCREW That!  Anything they say contrary to this is BS.

Where then is our republicanism to be found? Not in our constitution certainly, but merely in the spirit of our people. That would oblige even a despot to govern us republicanly. Owing to this spirit, and to nothing in the form of our constitution, all things have gone well. But this fact, so triumphantly misquoted by the enemies of reformation, is not the fruit of our constitution, but has prevailed in spite of it. Our functionaries have done well, because generally honest men. If any were not so, they feared to show it.

But it will be said, it is easier to find faults than to amend them. I do not think their amendment so difficult as is pretended. Only lay down true principles, and adhere to them inflexibly.
Do not be frightened into their surrender by the alarms of the timid, or the croakings of wealth against the ascendency of the people

. ~Letter to Samuel Kercheval, Thomas Jefferson (July 12, 1816)

I was under the impression that all rights are the result of divine province. That is what Beck says, isn't it? We are talking about "collective bargaining rights", are we not? Therefore, GOD has determined that these people have the right to collective bargaining.

Also, rights can not be revoked through legislation. Rights can only be removed through due process of law, and only when the person has committed a crime. Now, my reason for not liking unions does have to do with the commission of a crime (coercion under threat of violence), but as all the Bush backers say: "no trial, no crime". And since these people have not been convicted, their collective bargaining "RIGHTS" can not be revoked. Not only that, to state that the actions of a few should dictate the outcome for the many, is purely unconstitutional.

The hard working just need to see the light and understand that the lazy employee is a threat to their future.

And that is why it has been my experience to watch other union members lead the supervisor to where that individual is sleeping or having sex. And have witnessed immediate termination and no union blow back. So what is your point?

Tim the problem is Anti-union propaganda said those people are never fired and many people take the propaganda as fact.

Yup and some people believe that the moon is made of cheese. Beam us up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here.

I was under the impression that all rights are the result of divine province.

Sorry but Human Rights are innate... they used the word "Inalienable" in the U.S. Constitution for a reason.

"The Divine Right of Rule by Kings" is an idea the America defeated, and overthrew in our Revolution of 1776.

Come on Zoilus(sp)?! Tell me that your response was the result of posting late, and that you normally would recognize sarcasm, irony, and humor (the stab at Glen Beck should have given it away). Damn you intellectuals!!!!:}

Actually I should have known better. You missed an easy one about a year or so ago, when I made the statement,

"So, either Jefferson was a closet communist, or Marx was a Jeffersonian scholar". And you told me to compare the dates when the statements were made.

I hate sarcasm.

sarcasm |ˈsärˌkazəm|noun

the use of irony to mock or convey contempt : his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment. See note at wit.

But I agree with the rest of your statement.

I have to use sarcasm. I, being a republican, from an ultra conservative christian family, know how these people think. They must be repeatedly reminded of their past actions and words. If, for no other reason, than to remind them how stupid they sound. That whole "rights coming from God" swill is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Freedom of religion, seriously??? How about, "I am a Jealous God, thou shalt have no other gods before me"!

But I digress.. They talk in circles. They say something one day, and something different the next, which was the whole purpose of the statement I made in 17.11. Not only did Beck say it, but it was the main talking point on FOX for a week, "Our rights come from God", you should really consider watching, riveting stuff! Of course you will need lots of Vicoden and tequila, because shutting down half your brain is necessary in order to understand their points, without causing a stroke.

They talk in circles.

Whose "They"? Because you seem to be doing just that.

The Founders never said that our "Natural" rights came from any god.

And if you are trying to redirect this debate away from the subject... don't.

Dan,

"They" are the religious rightwing reactionary regressives, like Beck and Reed. Alan is slamming them and the idea that god had anything to do with "rights".

Daniel, I like you. I like the way you took down Cornhusker a couple of weeks ago, when she claimed to be an historian. I like reading all the passages from all the letters and quotes of the founders which you post. But I think you need to slow down, take a breath, and read what I have written again. As Tim stated, I was quoting Heir Beck.

I have not, nor will I ever quote the founders, that honor belongs to you, and what little I know about them and their thoughts, I learned by reading your posts. Don't get the wrong impression, but I actually missed reading you when you were absent from the vine. So many right wingers were tossing around false and misleading "quotes" from the founders, and there was no Dan Hallo to correct them. God knows that I am not qualified.

I'm an atheist. I am religiously persecuted for it here and so get defensive on that front. Sorry if I over reacted.

No sweat.

My main goal on the vine is to call attention to the hypocrisy of my (republican) party. They have twisted their minds, their beliefs, and the Word in so many different directions that hypocrisy is pretty much a given. Hell, I am fairly certain if they were to step back, and reflect on what they hold true now, they would find that they have indeed strayed from their original ideals. But the leaders and talking heads of our party insist that these are the things which they must believe, so they believe.

Most of the republican leaders are counting on the fact that their followers have very short memories. Just as it is with the weather in CO, their opinions/beliefs will change every five minutes, and the people will follow. And when someone like me, or Ron Christman comes along and tells them that they are wrong, or that they stated something different last week, or even last year, we get called liberals, democrats, traitors. When it is they who are actually the traitors, selling their souls to the party, denying their core principles, all to carry the torch of talking points. Committing blasphemy and breaking the commandment of false witness, repeating lies and half truths, while claiming to be on the side of God, doing His work.

Sorry, I get a little preachy on Sunday morning. But, as I stated, no sweat.

I wouldn't put money on that one. The majority of the state is NOT behind Walker. Just as most of America is not.

I wouldn't put money on that one. The majority of the state is NOT behind Walker. Just as most of America is not.

I swear if he is recalled Im going to throw my computer away

michelle,

I wouldn't put money on that one. The majority of the state is NOT behind Walker. Just as most of America is not.

This article is about recalling GOP legislators. I think for the reason you cite it will be successful. It will show the lack of support for Walker's position within the State.

By Wisconsin law, he has to be in for a year before they can. But they're already getting all the paperwork ready....

Another lie that the cartels claim. They are the champions of the working class or the middle class. None sense, NONE SENSE!!!!!!to the tenth degree......nothing that the Unions have done has been for the working class other that to take their money an infuse their own rank and file with generous benefit packages at their (Working class) expense.

Please don't give me the breaks and lunches BS or the vacations all that was done 80 years ago by a different kind of union. A union that was needed and did good things for everyone. Tell me what has the Cartels done for any non-union middle class citizen in the last 10 years.

Please give one significant gain that the union has accomplished for a non-union citizen in the last 10 years, or even the last 20 years? .

This is a challenge, who will respond?

You really are doing everything you can to ignore the real problem aren't you. You Need to believe the unions are the problem Not say Corporations outsourcing, paying little to nothing in taxes, and lowering wages. No it's got to be the union who make up less then 15% of the US workforce.

I went down south one year to visit and felt and in some parts even saw the color line quite clear and vivid. Lots of bigotry, but there was on big difference between the bigots from the south east and the bigots from north west.

Those from the south at least made it clear I don't like you so stay away. You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

The bigots from the north west will talk with you, laugh with you, and make it seem like they're your friend, yet they hate you and call you names behind your back and stab you in the back when your not looking and say amongst themselves , "Look!..What a fool."

Who's worse?

I say;

The hypocrite who call himself your friend, says he fights for you and dwells among you with no way to tell who's who, yet all the while he stabs you in the back when your not looking and says, "Look!..What a fool."

Unions are not for the working class nor the middle class they are for their membership.

IHL

Unions are the middle class and the working class

They are not!!! only part of it....a small part of it

And all this has nothing to do with my points. By The Way there are just as many here in the south that act like the so called Northern bigots. They just waited till you left. not that it has ANYTHING to do with this.

Unions are not for the working class nor the middle class they are for their membership.

When started, unions were for the working class, now they are only for the membership insomuch as it keeps the leadership's paychecks coming ...

Unions have had very little impact on the welfare of middle class Americans precisely because they have been successfully vilified and marginalized. At the same time union membership has dwindled middle class wages have stagnated and begun to go backwards. If they were to again become popular they might just be able to reverse the trend. If not, I see nothing to prevent working class wages and benefits from continuing to disappear. Demand for labor is being met by the vast foreign sources of cheap labor.